[2008-09-11 14:18:08] hey all [2008-09-11 14:18:51] Hey, getting ready for IRC hour? [2008-09-11 14:18:54] yup [2008-09-11 14:19:06] listening to inspirational music to get courage [2008-09-11 14:19:07] =) [2008-09-11 14:21:01] hopefully you'll manage to drum up some fresh traffic, the server has been starting to look a bit anemic lately [2008-09-11 14:22:43] I guess we'll find out in 40 min [2008-09-11 14:26:06] -->| DaveMB (~iamnothin@134.50.174.79) has joined #GarageGames [2008-09-11 14:29:35] -->| Kiyaku (~admin@i59F5775F.versanet.de) has joined #GarageGames [2008-09-11 14:34:22] Wonder if it will get crowded in here [2008-09-11 14:35:13] * DaveMB thinks that it might. [2008-09-11 14:35:14] might help to make a new posting about it on gg, I dont see anything showing on the whatsnew page currently, and I know I'd kinda forgotten it was today [2008-09-11 14:35:32] I just remembered [2008-09-11 14:35:45] I found it strange that no one posted in your topic about it, though. [2008-09-11 14:36:21] * DaveMB pauses for TMI Time: Bathroom Break. [2008-09-11 14:37:48] |<-- ishy has left irc.maxgaming.net (Ping timeout) [2008-09-11 14:41:34] There are some posts in my blog [2008-09-11 14:41:45] and a lot of people stopped here as soon as i posted the blog [2008-09-11 14:42:11] Good. Hopefully they didn't think it was *right then*! [2008-09-11 14:42:29] I made sure to let them know that =) [2008-09-11 14:43:13] OK, I'll brb [2008-09-11 14:45:29] =-= Mode #garagegames +mp by Logan-MGT [2008-09-11 14:45:40] -->| Adrian-MGT (~awright@rrcs-96-11-118-10.central.biz.rr.com) has joined #GarageGames [2008-09-11 14:45:41] =-= Mode #garagegames +o Adrian-MGT by ChanServ [2008-09-11 14:45:41] =-= Mode #garagegames -m by Logan-MGT [2008-09-11 14:45:47] =-= Mode #garagegames +o mPerry by Adrian-MGT [2008-09-11 14:45:47] =-= Mode #garagegames -o mPerry by ChanServ [2008-09-11 14:46:22] * DaveMB watches rights flying by. [2008-09-11 14:46:46] ha [2008-09-11 14:47:57] I'm gonna start logging now, so from now until the time I leave the conversation will be on record [2008-09-11 14:48:58] Sounds good to me. Gotta keep track. [2008-09-11 14:50:23] Hmm, I wonder if it is actually logging right now [2008-09-11 14:50:25] =-= Mode #garagegames +o mPerry by Logan-MGT [2008-09-11 14:50:30] this client is still a lil' wierd [2008-09-11 14:50:44] if not, guess you can do a mass copy & paste :) [2008-09-11 14:51:26] oh noes [2008-09-11 14:51:29] ok, it's logging [2008-09-11 14:51:46] My coworkers are trying to make me nervous [2008-09-11 14:52:05] -->| GGdeborahm (~jirc@207.109.247.122) has joined #GarageGames [2008-09-11 14:53:30] there's one of 'em [2008-09-11 14:53:56] -->| kenh (~jirc@207.109.247.122) has joined #GarageGames [2008-09-11 14:53:58] =-= Chemeleon is now known as Chemeleon-MGT [2008-09-11 14:53:59] Eeek! [2008-09-11 14:54:06] =-= GGdeborahm was booted from #GarageGames by YOU (mPerry) [2008-09-11 14:54:13] awesome [2008-09-11 14:54:15] that was a test [2008-09-11 14:54:16] sweet, deborah got kicked [2008-09-11 14:54:19] ban! [2008-09-11 14:54:20] -->| [GG]mattf (~[GG]mattf@207.109.247.122) has joined #GarageGames [2008-09-11 14:54:23] haha [2008-09-11 14:54:24] only been on for a few minutes, and the power is already going to his head :P [2008-09-11 14:54:27] -->| GG (~jirc@207.109.247.122) has joined #GarageGames [2008-09-11 14:54:38] Been a while since I got to admin an IRC chat [2008-09-11 14:54:46] this client makes it so much easier...point&click =) [2008-09-11 14:55:09] |<-- kenh has left irc.maxgaming.net (Quit: Bye bye) [2008-09-11 14:55:14] hello [2008-09-11 14:55:17] -->| [GG]kenh (~jirc@207.109.247.122) has joined #GarageGames [2008-09-11 14:55:18] hey, fix your name [2008-09-11 14:55:23] blargh [2008-09-11 14:55:23] |<-- GG has left irc.maxgaming.net (Quit: Bye bye) [2008-09-11 14:55:25] -->| GG (~jirc@207.109.247.122) has joined #GarageGames [2008-09-11 14:55:28] |<-- GG has left irc.maxgaming.net (Quit: Bye bye) [2008-09-11 14:55:36] Leave it to Deborah to spam [2008-09-11 14:55:41] -->| GGDebM (~jirc@207.109.247.122) has joined #GarageGames [2008-09-11 14:55:48] =-= Mode #garagegames +o DaveMB by Adrian-MGT [2008-09-11 14:55:50] /nick newnick will change it without a reconnect [2008-09-11 14:55:55] |<-- GGDebM has left irc.maxgaming.net (Quit: Bye bye) [2008-09-11 14:56:00] haha [2008-09-11 14:56:06] -->| [GG]DebM (~jirc@207.109.247.122) has joined #GarageGames [2008-09-11 14:56:22] ok, giving it a few more minutes....wait for the stragllers [2008-09-11 14:56:25] then we'll get a tally [2008-09-11 14:56:46] Sounds good. [2008-09-11 14:56:50] -->| Morrock (~profile@adsl-9-154-183.mia.bellsouth.net) has joined #GarageGames [2008-09-11 14:57:01] 'Ello [2008-09-11 14:57:10] Hey, the IRC hour starts in 3 minutes, right? [2008-09-11 14:57:10] Hey there [2008-09-11 14:57:23] Give or take. [2008-09-11 14:58:57] 1 more minute [2008-09-11 14:59:02] <[GG]DebM> It's the final countdown! [2008-09-11 14:59:36] -->| Syrup84 (~jirc@207.109.247.122) has joined #GarageGames [2008-09-11 14:59:39] Dun-da-da-dun-duuuuhn! Da-da-dun-dun-duhn! [2008-09-11 14:59:43] :D [2008-09-11 14:59:44] dangit, now I've got that song stuck in my head :\ [2008-09-11 14:59:53] there ya go [2008-09-11 14:59:57] time [2008-09-11 15:00:03] OK [2008-09-11 15:00:16] |<-- Syrup84 has left irc.maxgaming.net (Quit: Bye bye) [2008-09-11 15:00:17] -->| Syrup84 (~jirc@207.109.247.122) has joined #GarageGames [2008-09-11 15:00:24] So, this is Michael Perry. David Montgomery-Blake is DaveMB [2008-09-11 15:00:25] |<-- Syrup84 has left irc.maxgaming.net (Quit: Bye bye) [2008-09-11 15:00:38] We'll be running IRC Hour [2008-09-11 15:00:43] -->| [GG]Derekb (~jirc@207.109.247.122) has joined #GarageGames [2008-09-11 15:00:45] That's me. Some might have seen us around. [2008-09-11 15:00:52] In the room, if you see anyone with a [GG] tag, that is most likely a GarageGames employee [2008-09-11 15:01:11] Today is TGB and TorqueX discussion [2008-09-11 15:01:32] David and I came up with some topics and leading questions to get this going [2008-09-11 15:01:46] So what we'll do is start with TX for the first 30 minutes [2008-09-11 15:02:03] If you have any questions you can filter them via private message to David [2008-09-11 15:02:10] but once we ask a question, feel free to answer however you want [2008-09-11 15:02:23] This should be a lot of fun and give us some extremely valuable feedback on documentation and the needs that everyone has. [2008-09-11 15:02:23] We are logging, so it will be easy for us to sort through the chaos and post a summary afterwards [2008-09-11 15:02:42] Exactly [2008-09-11 15:02:50] Anything else you want to add David? [2008-09-11 15:03:04] Not really. Let's get this show on the road! [2008-09-11 15:03:16] Starting with TorqueX... [2008-09-11 15:03:20] 1. What tutorials would you like to see? What would be most helpful and how would you like them organized? [2008-09-11 15:03:37] TorqueX being the newest engine, will have the least amount of available tutorials and information [2008-09-11 15:03:57] So, for those who showed up....what kind of TorqueX tutorials do you want? [2008-09-11 15:04:34] Any TorqueX users here? [2008-09-11 15:04:35] -->| pdos010 (~jirc@220-245-66-163.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #GarageGames [2008-09-11 15:04:37] Now don't everyone ask all at once. [2008-09-11 15:04:52] I figured some TorqueX users would have been here today =) [2008-09-11 15:05:13] -->| chandler9 (~michaelle@CPE00131043da41-CM000f9faa721c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #GarageGames [2008-09-11 15:05:21] I don't think there are that many TX users... are there any even in here right now? [2008-09-11 15:05:23] So did I. I see tons of questions about it, and I thought people would be chomping at the bit to ask us here! [2008-09-11 15:05:46] <[GG]DebM> A good question is, what engines are you guys interested in talking about? [2008-09-11 15:06:11] -->| BlackHC (~BlackHC@pD9E5A796.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #GarageGames [2008-09-11 15:06:13] iTorque... [2008-09-11 15:06:21] Well I'm a TGE/A guy. But I think there should be some people for TGB here......right? [2008-09-11 15:06:21] Of course haha [2008-09-11 15:06:37] yeah, we were gonna do TGB next, but if there are no TX people we can jump right to the other stuff [2008-09-11 15:07:11] I've got a really awesome photo of Deborah to share with everyone, but it appears I can't [2008-09-11 15:07:12] * DaveMB hides blikstad's body. [2008-09-11 15:07:13] ahh well [2008-09-11 15:07:13] * blikstad is not quite here by the way so you can safely ignore me. hah [2008-09-11 15:07:23] you can always web host it [2008-09-11 15:07:36] <[GG]DebM> you know, this is supposed to be a serious discussion thread. :P [2008-09-11 15:07:46] <[GG]DebM> But, since pdos is here, he's doing some heavy dev work on TGB. [2008-09-11 15:07:47] yeah guys, back on topic [2008-09-11 15:07:49] are you saying that you are not worthy of a conversation? [2008-09-11 15:07:52] <[GG]DebM> yes [2008-09-11 15:07:58] <[GG]kenh> pdizzle [2008-09-11 15:07:58] <[GG]DebM> That is exactly what I am saying [2008-09-11 15:08:09] Way to derail the discussion GG employees [2008-09-11 15:08:15] <[GG]kenh> np [2008-09-11 15:08:16] haha [2008-09-11 15:08:19] OK, TGB it is [2008-09-11 15:08:24] TGB, same question: 1. What tutorials would you like to see? What would be most helpful and how would you like them organized? [2008-09-11 15:08:26] anything [2008-09-11 15:08:36] <[GG]DebM> I'm in favor of a free for all discussion actually [2008-09-11 15:08:44] <[GG]DebM> Any question, any engine, we'll do our best to answer [2008-09-11 15:08:45] Second. [2008-09-11 15:08:52] ok i will bite on that one [2008-09-11 15:08:56] my biggest beef with torque [2008-09-11 15:09:17] TGB tutorials? I think smaller focused tutorials on particular aspects would be nice [2008-09-11 15:09:21] has always been that its been a pain in the ass to get the engine pared down, knowing what to remove, etc. so that I can actually get started with it [2008-09-11 15:09:49] so having more hands on, lets make a pac-man game would be handy [2008-09-11 15:09:52] something simple like, how to handle changes in the game's resolution while preserving the aspect ratio of the objects [2008-09-11 15:10:27] So, both pdos and Logan came out the gate with similar themes [2008-09-11 15:10:29] That would be a good idea, pdos. People ask things like that alot [2008-09-11 15:10:32] something, anything really to show you just how simple and easy it is to make a quick casual game [2008-09-11 15:10:37] Smaller, more focused tutorials and docs [2008-09-11 15:10:42] <[GG]Derekb> I would like to see more done with behaviors [2008-09-11 15:10:43] but something a person could learn from [2008-09-11 15:11:08] going from step 1, you bouhg the engine, to step 100, compiling the executable for release [2008-09-11 15:11:24] <[GG]Derekb> I agree although thats a huge project [2008-09-11 15:11:29] I also agree with Derek. I used some of the behavior playground behaviors for a small prototype the other day, it helped out so much [2008-09-11 15:11:44] more behavior info would be sweet. as well as info on the field types [2008-09-11 15:11:50] Good so far, keep going [2008-09-11 15:11:52] Free for all now [2008-09-11 15:12:10] @pdos - Are you thinking more game centric, or more usability? [2008-09-11 15:12:22] usability [2008-09-11 15:12:25] yes big project indeed [2008-09-11 15:12:31] That's a really good one, Logan. Huge, but it's what I like about some of the basic XNA tutorials. [2008-09-11 15:12:36] but we did something like that for Multiverse a month back [2008-09-11 15:12:46] it took the whole team at MGT pretty much the whole month [2008-09-11 15:12:59] but we documented creating a brand new world from scratch with their MMO engine [2008-09-11 15:13:05] its not super in depth [2008-09-11 15:13:12] how big was the team? [2008-09-11 15:13:14] but its enough to cover all the basics [2008-09-11 15:13:22] four or five [2008-09-11 15:13:35] we didnt cover art exporting or importing [2008-09-11 15:13:46] gotcha [2008-09-11 15:14:08] michael, more tutorials are good n all, but so many users skip them! [2008-09-11 15:14:17] @pdos - Skip them? [2008-09-11 15:14:18] just the raw basics of making a new MMO world, populating it, creating quests, creating items and NPCs and getting it going [2008-09-11 15:14:27] you've got a hell of a task promoting new people to actually sit down and go through them [2008-09-11 15:14:36] hmm,, tuts are nirvanna for me, personally ;P [2008-09-11 15:14:41] don't do them [2008-09-11 15:14:42] I don't know if they skip them or if they copy-and-paste and never process them. [2008-09-11 15:14:47] all in all one of us took a task and went with it [2008-09-11 15:14:49] @Logan - The whole step 1 to 100 project is something pretty big, right now I'm the only doc writer. However, this could be a long term project worth taking if we had a direction [2008-09-11 15:14:53] so it wasnt terribly difficult at all [2008-09-11 15:14:53] <= maker of PSK [2008-09-11 15:15:06] <[GG]DebM> I think Dave's hit it on the head...maybe people understand instead of copy and paste is really difficult [2008-09-11 15:15:15] no offense to my users, but some of the most basic questions are covered in the Docs [2008-09-11 15:15:22] haha ya [2008-09-11 15:15:28] things like, how do you import images into TGB [2008-09-11 15:15:31] but in many ways users are looking for that helping hand [2008-09-11 15:15:31] Dave, I do think that copy-paste is a big problem for learning, but what can we do about that? [2008-09-11 15:15:33] how do you make a tilelayer [2008-09-11 15:16:03] even if that helping hand is a guide they are following to make the same cookie cutter game in a weeks time [2008-09-11 15:16:04] Of course they are, pdos. But people don't read. [2008-09-11 15:16:11] <[GG]DebM> You think organization is the problem? People just don't know where to look? Or laziness? Or both? [2008-09-11 15:16:19] what is code snippets were JPEGs? [2008-09-11 15:16:21] just images? [2008-09-11 15:16:30] That way they are forced to type in the code, even if it is provided for them [2008-09-11 15:16:31] oooooooooh [2008-09-11 15:16:34] still, that's sort of forcing them to type it [2008-09-11 15:16:37] Debra, probably both [2008-09-11 15:16:38] I usually find that type of thing quite annoying [2008-09-11 15:16:42] I think there is a severe disconnect between what people want to do now and their capacity for understanding how it can be done. [2008-09-11 15:16:49] the GG starting page has very little inforamation on how to start [2008-09-11 15:16:50] thats the type of thing that will typically get me to skip a tutorial and look for one somewhere else [2008-09-11 15:17:00] Really I don't think there's any way for someone to process copy paste unless they're willing to attempt learning it [2008-09-11 15:17:01] and people are too lazy to hunt through docs, even on TDN [2008-09-11 15:17:08] <[GG]kenh> well, if you bought a book on C++ or something, you couldnt copy/paste from that.. unless it had a cd or something [2008-09-11 15:17:21] so pushing a document onto them with the EXE download for the source could be helpful [2008-09-11 15:17:22] <[GG]kenh> i like the jpeg idea [2008-09-11 15:17:30] The way I see it, if people don't WANT to learn... their loss... but I guess I'm just a cynical weirdo... =) [2008-09-11 15:17:40] ken true [2008-09-11 15:17:41] It also depends on how people learn, I would never learn from that jpg idea. Some might, I just don't take things in that way [2008-09-11 15:17:50] Often times they are working with different terminology or are searching indices for other terms than what is documented. I see this with many people in the Flex and AS communities right now. [2008-09-11 15:17:52] though im also a big fan of commenting what something does when learning it [2008-09-11 15:18:01] because if i have no clue why i am changin a variable to be 20, i wont learn [2008-09-11 15:18:02] blikstad, but then so many people devote their time to helping people like that on the forums answering questions that have already been covered! [2008-09-11 15:18:23] More tutorials need to just explain why certain things are being done [2008-09-11 15:18:24] Their (and mine I guess) loss too... =) [2008-09-11 15:18:35] hah, true [2008-09-11 15:18:36] =-= Logan-MGT has changed the topic to ``Official GarageGames channel -=- Official GG TGB/TX Chat Hour... ask your questions while you can -=- www.Exis-Exchange.com buy and sell 3D art, join today! -=- Promote your games related work here -=- If you have a question, ask in the channel'' [2008-09-11 15:18:46] <[GG]DebM> I actually kind of agree with blikstad. I don't want to encourage lazy people in our community. We have to decide who we are going to provide docs to, and what best fits your needs. [2008-09-11 15:19:00] i like that attitude [2008-09-11 15:19:07] aim for the good people! [2008-09-11 15:19:13] so, ignore my suggestions! [2008-09-11 15:19:15] Pretty much, i'm not trying to motivate [2008-09-11 15:19:17] So, Magnus, where can I find the Max exporter? [2008-09-11 15:19:24] lol [2008-09-11 15:19:25] <[GG]DebM> So does a doc that goes from step 1 to step 100...does that encourage the rest kind of people in our community? [2008-09-11 15:19:28] Aye, but I don't want to have to type in hundreds of lines of code for a difficult tutorial because someone is lazy [2008-09-11 15:19:30] <[GG]DebM> It might actually, even if it is a big task. [2008-09-11 15:19:33] * DaveMB laughs. [2008-09-11 15:19:40] But what DaveMB said; I would just get very, very annoyed if all code was in images.... I don't learn just because I type something, I learn because the code provided in said tutorial never does exactly what I want so I start changing it. =) [2008-09-11 15:19:54] The max exporters are on TDN... =) [2008-09-11 15:20:02] lol [2008-09-11 15:20:02] |<-- Sir_H_Appleby has left irc.maxgaming.net (Quit: ) [2008-09-11 15:20:11] Got sick of people asking so put them all up there. [2008-09-11 15:20:18] and there are times when you arnt necessarily concerned with learning from a tutorial, so much as utilizing what it does [2008-09-11 15:20:22] * DaveMB laughs again! [2008-09-11 15:20:22] Deb at the very least you can say "did you read step 56 of the 'getting started' docs?" [2008-09-11 15:20:27] I'll be damned if I remember where though. shrug. [2008-09-11 15:20:38] or vice versa people can reference back to them because they show something they want to expand more upon [2008-09-11 15:21:06] I think that is the path we are headed down anyway Logan [2008-09-11 15:21:12] cool [2008-09-11 15:21:14] i like [2008-09-11 15:21:17] What if our tutorials didn't chain together [2008-09-11 15:21:19] Removing copy and paste functionality is inherently unfriendly and will piss people who are using the documentation off. [2008-09-11 15:21:26] in other words, there wasn't a single cohesive sample game project [2008-09-11 15:21:27] Ah, there. Found the link... just in case anyone should need it; http://tdn.garagegames.com/wiki/DTS/FeatureChart [2008-09-11 15:21:30] I also wish that Torque's source itself was better explained. Or that descriptions of fields were better explained. Then we wouldn't need as many tutorials for people to understand certain objects [2008-09-11 15:21:32] I think explaining the "logic" behind every technical and a function summery would be helpful [2008-09-11 15:21:45] but what if there were 20 mini game tutorials, but they all taught something important to completing an entire game? [2008-09-11 15:21:57] thats a good idea [2008-09-11 15:21:59] I like that approach myself. [2008-09-11 15:22:04] it certainly would help you learn what you think is important [2008-09-11 15:22:12] mPerry: That would be good, but make sure they explain why each code snippet does what, and not just how to properly copy them in [2008-09-11 15:22:13] @michael, agree [2008-09-11 15:22:19] I can tell you, I've tried working on a huge game tutorial project [2008-09-11 15:22:21] it drains the soul [2008-09-11 15:22:24] Even though people say that they want an example of a complete game, they often want an example of *their* game. [2008-09-11 15:22:26] Tutorials that tell you to copy in code and learn from it are just resources [2008-09-11 15:22:33] Because if one thing goes wrong in the end, you might have to go back to the beginning adn start fixing stuff [2008-09-11 15:22:55] if you know the why and how it works instead of this is how it works you can start to make things on your own [2008-09-11 15:22:57] The RPG tutorial on XNA is a great example of that. It is a very nice, complete example project...and has spawned nothing but requests for others to modify it to make it right for their projects. [2008-09-11 15:23:38] So it would make since if our existing tutorials were tightened up a bit....document everything script line that gets used, give it a purpose [2008-09-11 15:23:38] exploratory learning...now you know function1 and function2 if you use this "logic" you can get these results [2008-09-11 15:23:43] Dave cool [2008-09-11 15:23:54] which in turn if you had that for TGB would spanw more TDN articles [2008-09-11 15:24:08] Another difficulty, and I think this is a long-time Torque difficulty with the market we are in as somewhere between "anyone can make a game" and "code professionals can make a game" is that often people do not have basic programming down before touching Torque. [2008-09-11 15:24:19] Not necessarily every line needs to be documented, but definately enough for people to understand what's going on in the engine. [2008-09-11 15:24:41] "...would spawn more TDN articles..."; I just want to point out that it's my feeling that TDN really suck. Just... so you know. [2008-09-11 15:24:45] |<-- Kiyaku has left irc.maxgaming.net (Quit: 12( www.nnscript.com 12:: NoNameScript 4.21 12:: www.esnation.com 12)) [2008-09-11 15:25:00] @blikstad - Except the TGB section [2008-09-11 15:25:04] wikis altogether kinda suck actually... they're great when you KNOW what you're looking for. [2008-09-11 15:25:05] Magnus, yes but i think thats due to other aspects [2008-09-11 15:25:13] I do think TDN needs some work too. But is it too much to ask the rest of the community who knows this stuff help write it out? [2008-09-11 15:25:25] Morrock, yes [2008-09-11 15:25:27] Morrock: apparently. [2008-09-11 15:25:29] lol [2008-09-11 15:25:30] you need to lead by example [2008-09-11 15:25:46] <[GG]DebM> We've actually thought about getting rid of TDN in favor of just official docs, but the problem is allowing the community a place to write stuff for us. [2008-09-11 15:25:56] I've been trying to go over all of the source code for Rigid's to better document it [2008-09-11 15:26:00] <[GG]DebM> Mich has been doing a good job lately of scouring TDN for the good stuff to roll into official docs, but we just started that [2008-09-11 15:26:05] <[GG]DebM> Only time will tell if that's really effective or not [2008-09-11 15:26:20] http://tdn.garagegames.com/wiki/Meta/Official_Documentation_Submission_Guidelines [2008-09-11 15:26:22] I agree on that. Wiki's are great for segmented, searchable information, but often times people don't know exactly what they're looking for. And we don't know that "Silhouette Mirage" is their keywork for the type of platformer they're working on. [2008-09-11 15:26:24] (and as an extra note; aaah, hadn't seen the new TGB start page at TDN.... way better at least =) [2008-09-11 15:26:25] Deb, well i think the idea of TDN is sound [2008-09-11 15:26:26] This is my attempt to revitalize TDN [2008-09-11 15:26:40] it just needs more guys pounding away at it to put up solid content [2008-09-11 15:26:56] But not many people are willing to pound away [2008-09-11 15:27:04] paid people [2008-09-11 15:27:17] maybe run some sort of promotion where writing x decent articles/tutorials gets you some sort of credit towards gg store, instantaction, etc? [2008-09-11 15:27:18] I see where you're going [2008-09-11 15:27:23] dont expect people to do anything out of the goodness of thier hearts for free [2008-09-11 15:27:29] it didnt work when this community was first founded [2008-09-11 15:27:32] and it wont work now :) [2008-09-11 15:28:05] well [2008-09-11 15:28:10] that's how they got me [2008-09-11 15:28:12] and Morrock is righting [2008-09-11 15:28:15] as is Apparatus [2008-09-11 15:28:18] So being upfront and hiring or contracting out to experts to write some solid docs for it would probably go a very long way [2008-09-11 15:28:21] <[GG]Derekb> the promotion thing was tried before and it takes significant time and effort to weed through submissions and often times a lot of back and forth to make solid [2008-09-11 15:28:24] I've got about 10 people behind the scenes writing [2008-09-11 15:28:54] cool [2008-09-11 15:28:56] all community members [2008-09-11 15:28:57] is that full time or part time guys? [2008-09-11 15:28:57] yeah [2008-09-11 15:28:59] that's not a work force [2008-09-11 15:29:03] <[GG]DebM> The money issue is interesting. If you don't mind me being frank, we don't mind paying for quality docs, but we've also found some awesome people making docs and other stuff for "free" because they get something else out of it [2008-09-11 15:29:09] <[GG]DebM> Our Associate program is a good large example of that [2008-09-11 15:29:23] <[GG]DebM> We struggle with what really motivates people, and then how to take their good work, give them what they want, and then benefit from it [2008-09-11 15:30:19] Well I' [2008-09-11 15:30:31] Way to just stop conversation [2008-09-11 15:30:34] <[GG]kenh> *crickets* [2008-09-11 15:30:37] Well I'm just writing up docs for the Rigid's mainly because it helps me learn. That's enough motivation for me [2008-09-11 15:30:38] <[GG]kenh> ;) [2008-09-11 15:30:41] I see what you are saying Logan [2008-09-11 15:30:42] lol, damn Enter key [2008-09-11 15:30:43] <[GG]DebM> Look, you can disagree [2008-09-11 15:30:45] It makes sense [2008-09-11 15:30:49] I don't know how to convince others however [2008-09-11 15:31:10] <[GG]DebM> That's why we're talking here actually...see if there are better solutions out there to try. [2008-09-11 15:31:26] I'll take care of the motivation, I'm asking for free help right now...people who WANT to document stuff that isn't on my radar yet [2008-09-11 15:31:56] In all honesty the "associates program" really doesn't do that particularly much... There was a little surge for a while where you guys tried to get it going again, but now it's been pretty silent (at least from my point of view) again... But I suppose this isn't the place to talk about that. heh. [2008-09-11 15:32:23] Is there a "list" of completed, in progress, and needed documents? [2008-09-11 15:32:32] I have it Latency [2008-09-11 15:32:35] ya like a Bounty List [2008-09-11 15:32:43] associates do a great amount of work for torque products, blik [2008-09-11 15:32:44] not that you want that public [2008-09-11 15:32:49] Well I've got to step out of this conversation for a few minutes [2008-09-11 15:32:54] =-= Morrock is now known as Morrock|Away [2008-09-11 15:32:57] because theres nothing worse than someone seeing a bounty on an item and making a quick hack solution [2008-09-11 15:33:02] If someone is interested in writing docs, they just need to contact me [2008-09-11 15:33:28] If they know what they want to write [2008-09-11 15:33:30] they can tell me [2008-09-11 15:33:34] <[GG]kenh> there's a lot of progress on the associate's front IMO. We've had some great new additions, people are excited about it and posting more on GG, we've opened up the codebases again instead of the blackout that existed for quite a while [2008-09-11 15:33:36] making that public, and linking docs someone wrote direct to their profile page (like blogs and forum posts) might help get a few more people to contribute [2008-09-11 15:33:37] And i'll let them know if that is done, or if someone else is working on it [2008-09-11 15:34:12] fair enough [2008-09-11 15:34:19] Im currently adding support for TorqueScript to Visual Studio 2008 [2008-09-11 15:34:21] pdos: It was more the other way around... what does GG do for us associates? =) But as I said, this isn't the time or place for that. [2008-09-11 15:34:29] |<-- Latency has left irc.maxgaming.net (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070208]) [2008-09-11 15:34:37] <[GG]kenh> If there is something specifically you feel the associates program is lacking though, as an Associate, it's your duty to.. um let me know about it? :) [2008-09-11 15:34:38] Chemeleon thats a good idea [2008-09-11 15:34:42] it sucks when you write a doc [2008-09-11 15:34:51] -->| Latency (~chatzilla@64.158.129.66) has joined #GarageGames [2008-09-11 15:34:52] but cannot find it because the search function on the GG site is lacking [2008-09-11 15:34:54] I used the lex and bison files that come with TGE as a base [2008-09-11 15:35:11] Do you think thats a huge problem? [2008-09-11 15:35:14] Well, the search thing I can't fix. But if you write a doc and tell me about it, I will have that linked [2008-09-11 15:35:18] ie) i think i have psoted the fixed Max TGE files about 10x but i can never find the necessary forum post if i search for it [2008-09-11 15:35:25] and gg forums lack the post counts that other communities have people comparing (a good thing imo), but maybe have a doc count instead of post count? [2008-09-11 15:35:34] If I was to release the Visual Studio extension? [2008-09-11 15:36:10] http://blackhc.wordpress.com/2008/09/07/visual-torquescript-2/ [2008-09-11 15:36:11] <[GG]DebM> (Just so you know, on website functionality, totally agreed on those issues. We've got them logged and have been working on them.) [2008-09-11 15:36:12] are you planning on updating the GG main page at least so that its easier to find some of that core information? [2008-09-11 15:36:20] Kenh; the fact that there hasn't been a single post in the associates forum in three weeks should say something.... But yet again; I really don't believe this is the time or place to discuss the associates program. [2008-09-11 15:36:51] Specific to doc info Logan? [2008-09-11 15:36:53] Core Doc Information? [2008-09-11 15:37:01] ya [2008-09-11 15:37:05] like as an artist [2008-09-11 15:37:21] finding any artist documentation information is difficult because its buried on the GG pages [2008-09-11 15:37:30] hmm [2008-09-11 15:37:31] Oh lord absolutely [2008-09-11 15:37:42] Like this? http://www.garagegames.com/developer/torque/artist/ [2008-09-11 15:37:53] The landing pages are being updated at least once a month, twice if its busy [2008-09-11 15:37:55] right [2008-09-11 15:38:00] This will include new links, new tutorials etc [2008-09-11 15:38:01] I'm out of here to pick up my friend's daughter. See ya! [2008-09-11 15:38:04] Later David [2008-09-11 15:38:08] thats a good page to start with... but finding it isnt easy [2008-09-11 15:38:17] The official Docs are being updated once a month [2008-09-11 15:38:27] |<-- DaveMB has left irc.maxgaming.net (Quit: Bersirc 2.2, for external use only. [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source IRC ]) [2008-09-11 15:38:32] And all community written docs should be submitted to me or on TDN, which I will be organizing much like the TGB page [2008-09-11 15:38:51] But for the most updated info, the landing pages under the [Documentation] link on GG.com is where to go [2008-09-11 15:39:20] For example, I'll be linking to Apparatus's new Constructor guide on the next update. [2008-09-11 15:39:31] is that the kind of thing you are looking for? [2008-09-11 15:39:36] might be worth adding some sort of "So you want to help" category to the documentation pages [2008-09-11 15:39:41] ya thats the kind of thing i would look for [2008-09-11 15:40:21] are there any plans to add support for object templates and references back to TGB? [2008-09-11 15:40:47] @Chemeleon - Probably a good idea to make that section more prominent [2008-09-11 15:40:56] <[GG]DebM> Yeah, we have that "so you want to help" section on all the pages, but they are sort of buried right now. Like Mich said. [2008-09-11 15:41:54] Well, talking future engine release stuff isnt' something I can really say BlackHC [2008-09-11 15:42:10] I'm here mainly to talk documentation and tutorials and community [2008-09-11 15:42:19] ah, I see it now, I'd completely overlooked it when I first glanced over that page [2008-09-11 15:42:33] hmm let me rephrase: I loved the object template feature when I did contract work for you and I missed it dearly ever since [2008-09-11 15:42:35] <[GG]DebM> Yeah, you should have to search for that info, right? [2008-09-11 15:42:41] <[GG]DebM> shouldn't have to search, I mean. :) [2008-09-11 15:42:46] -->| Antmn (~Antman@adsl-99-142-58-172.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) has joined #GarageGames [2008-09-11 15:42:47] hehe :) [2008-09-11 15:42:57] |<-- [KT]MikeK has left irc.maxgaming.net (Ping timeout) [2008-09-11 15:43:06] === BlackHC <~BlackHC@pD9E5A796.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> ``Andreas Kirsch'' [2008-09-11 15:43:06] === BlackHC: member of #garagegames, @#Shelled, and #tgb [2008-09-11 15:43:06] === BlackHC: attached to mgo2.maxgaming.net ``MGOirc Server'' [2008-09-11 15:43:06] === BlackHC: idle for 33 seconds (on since Thursday, September 11, 2008 2:57:29 PM) [2008-09-11 15:43:07] --- End of WHOIS information for BlackHC. [2008-09-11 15:43:47] -->| [KT]MikeK (~Antman@adsl-99-141-186-251.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) has joined #GarageGames [2008-09-11 15:43:59] |<-- Antmn has left irc.maxgaming.net (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [2008-09-11 15:44:16] OK, so in my next blog and update I'll kind of dedicate a section to user generated documentation [2008-09-11 15:44:33] Walk them through those steps, and maybe think of how we can reward the rock star doc writers [2008-09-11 15:44:41] any GG coder here? [2008-09-11 15:45:08] <[GG]DebM> They're lurking...just glancing in as they're doing their code work. :) [2008-09-11 15:45:36] I wanted to reiterate my question, whether you guys would be interested in full Torque Script support in Visual Studio [2008-09-11 15:45:38] <[GG]Derekb> Deb likes to keep the whip at hand [2008-09-11 15:46:04] Which is why we all have photoshop handy [2008-09-11 15:46:11] wah wah [2008-09-11 15:46:29] <[GG]DebM> T_T [2008-09-11 15:46:32] OK, I had a question stored up [2008-09-11 15:46:35] this is gonna create some spam though [2008-09-11 15:46:43] What are the top 10 questions you ask yourself about Torque daily that never seem to be addressed? [2008-09-11 15:46:50] black, sounds usefull to me [2008-09-11 15:46:51] Stuff you have to keep searching for [2008-09-11 15:47:20] <[GG]DebM> @Black: I'm taking notes and will bring it up when we have our next dev meeting. [2008-09-11 15:47:27] hmm, my most common one isnt anything you can fix...where the heck did I save that source file :) [2008-09-11 15:47:47] Oooo, that's a good one Chemeleon [2008-09-11 15:47:54] where is the "Make Game" button? [2008-09-11 15:48:03] "Where did my mouse cursor go?" [2008-09-11 15:48:06] That's one on my lsit [2008-09-11 15:48:07] *list [2008-09-11 15:48:09] cool thanks [2008-09-11 15:48:24] but at this point, I'd say the most common thing I try to look up, is the weird error messages you sometimes run into [2008-09-11 15:48:26] it always eludes me [2008-09-11 15:48:55] I knew a lot of them at one point or another, but if you've not seen an error in a few years, it can be tricky to remember the cause of it if its not obvious [2008-09-11 15:49:03] right [2008-09-11 15:49:17] Since I'm learning TGB and TX right now, I'm finding all kinds of stuff i'm searching for constantly [2008-09-11 15:49:24] afaik, theres no one place to go just to look up error messages and what they mean [2008-09-11 15:49:31] What kind of error messages? [2008-09-11 15:49:33] Script? [2008-09-11 15:49:35] Console? [2008-09-11 15:49:36] C++? [2008-09-11 15:49:44] for me, max exporter mostly [2008-09-11 15:50:14] you know, an error list for each major aspect of Torque development would be very handy [2008-09-11 15:50:36] [Torque]->[Artist]->[Max]->"Error Message": This error happens because "blah blah" [2008-09-11 15:50:37] been answering some questions for exodus lately, and he's run into errors that I know I've had before, but remembering what they actually meant and how to fix them can be difficult since (and this sounds a bit egotistical...)I generally dont make those mistakes exporting anymore [2008-09-11 15:50:38] something like that [2008-09-11 15:50:42] exactly [2008-09-11 15:50:52] i used to have a big list of that stuff [2008-09-11 15:50:53] basically a big torque error message dictionary [2008-09-11 15:50:59] but someoene here at MGT forgot to backup our Wiki [2008-09-11 15:51:01] so it all got lost [2008-09-11 15:51:04] |<-- Juason has left irc.maxgaming.net (Quit: Back to the grind.) [2008-09-11 15:51:19] theres bits and pieces like that scattered around gg forums, tdn, etc, but theres no one place to go to quickly look things like that up [2008-09-11 15:51:28] haha very true [2008-09-11 15:51:33] and even the stuff in the forums [2008-09-11 15:51:40] you get 2 wrong answers and 1 right one [2008-09-11 15:51:47] so people arent sure what to use [2008-09-11 15:52:16] yea, and of course that info is all spread out over a pretty long timeline, so even if they were correct originally, it may not be entirely correct now [2008-09-11 15:52:17] good point [2008-09-11 15:53:14] off the top of my head, one I've answered quite often: Assertion Failed on Skin Object (or something like that anyway) means you have an object in the scene with the skin modifier applied, but its an editable poly instead of mesh [2008-09-11 15:53:33] its easy to fix, you just add an edit mesh modifier below the skin modifier, but its not obvious from the error message [2008-09-11 15:54:03] Sounds like something I can work on, I might have to ask for help on this since I won't have all the tools to generate the error messages [2008-09-11 15:54:21] but I bet I can create a nice little TDN page waiting to happen for now [2008-09-11 15:54:32] probably would be easier to check source code rather than just try to break things ;) [2008-09-11 15:54:40] ha, maybe [2008-09-11 15:54:45] Before I wrap things up [2008-09-11 15:55:01] NO error message in the max exporter is obvious.... =) [2008-09-11 15:55:11] you know what might be cool too [2008-09-11 15:55:20] what's that? [2008-09-11 15:55:25] if someone does something awesome in a forum post or plan, see if you can get them to document how or what they did [2008-09-11 15:55:36] share their tip or tricks used to create said cool thing [2008-09-11 15:55:46] <[GG]DebM> Like the Plastic Gems, yeah? [2008-09-11 15:55:49] kind of like that [2008-09-11 15:55:58] Bleh. Like anyone's got the time to bother with posting blogs and stuff. =) [2008-09-11 15:56:10] like lets take Aparatus and his new Constructor doc [2008-09-11 15:56:11] yea, if I had time, and someone specifically asked for me to write up something I did, I probably would [2008-09-11 15:56:12] interview him [2008-09-11 15:56:20] but if no ones asking, highly unlikely I would bother [2008-09-11 15:56:33] get him to talk more about the document, list things he did that might not be common knowledge or why he did it [2008-09-11 15:56:48] this way youc an both build a community by hiliting its core members [2008-09-11 15:57:07] and share information beyond what was written in a .plan, forum or document [2008-09-11 15:57:13] Good thing I lurk in the forums still, that's a good idea too [2008-09-11 15:57:25] I have my first target too =) [2008-09-11 15:57:25] sometimes its little things like finding out that they use a particular software [2008-09-11 15:57:34] or a particular function in that software you have never herad of [2008-09-11 15:57:42] maybe its how they work [2008-09-11 15:57:43] or design [2008-09-11 15:57:54] definitely useful [2008-09-11 15:57:58] key is that there are gems outside of just raw sample source [2008-09-11 15:58:01] just like the Mode7 Racer stuff that's gonna get documented [2008-09-11 15:58:27] Time for my IRC Hour Recommendation (just made that up) [2008-09-11 15:58:28] John Kanalakis's TorqueX book is frickin' amazing. So if you've been wanting to learn how to use TorqueX and TXBuilder, this book is a must have. I've been reading it for about a week and I love it. [2008-09-11 15:58:58] I was actually intimidated by TX and C# [2008-09-11 15:59:02] better than 3D game programming all in one? :) [2008-09-11 15:59:04] Now it's not so scary =) [2008-09-11 15:59:48] Never had to read All In One...i learned TGE and TGEA the hard way [2008-09-11 15:59:50] cool [2008-09-11 15:59:50] Oh and ubuntu 8.04 broke all my nice warning-less code. =( [2008-09-11 16:00:02] are all the torque related books linked on the GG site (ive never checked) [2008-09-11 16:00:02] So, [2008-09-11 16:00:06] speaking of torque x, any eta on skinned animation in it? [2008-09-11 16:00:11] that's the wrap for IRC Hour? How does everyone like this format? [2008-09-11 16:00:16] Just free for all? [2008-09-11 16:00:31] Maybe have this once a month instead of twice, and just let it be about all engines, all docs and tuts? [2008-09-11 16:00:35] not too bad considering how few people showed up to talk about TGB initially [2008-09-11 16:00:46] i think you might see more next week with the TGE/TGEA stuff [2008-09-11 16:00:50] FFA seems to usually work better at least until you start getting into much higher numbers of people [2008-09-11 16:01:08] <[KT]MikeK> hmm [2008-09-11 16:01:10] <[KT]MikeK> when working with OpenGL [2008-09-11 16:01:12] Probably make it a judgment call when it starts. [2008-09-11 16:01:14] <[KT]MikeK> is a state manager useful? [2008-09-11 16:01:25] <[KT]MikeK> IE, not passing a state change/flag change to the GL driver unless it actually changes? [2008-09-11 16:01:29] Ok, thanks for the feedback everyone [2008-09-11 16:01:31] <[KT]MikeK> or is the loss of CPU cycles not worth it [2008-09-11 16:01:33]